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The NewCity Orlando All of Life Podcast
The All of Life podcast, hosted by Nate Claiborne, provides weekly episodes that help further our mission to call, form, and send disciple-makers. At NewCity, we want to see Orlando flourish by filling it with people who say "Follow me as I follow Jesus in all of life."
The NewCity Orlando All of Life Podcast
Navigating Political Ideologies: A Conversation with Robert Cunningham
In this episode, Damein Schitter discusses following Jesus in politics with Robert Cunningham. Robert is the founder and director of Christ for Kentucky, and the former Senior Pastor of Tates Creek Presbyterian Church. He and Damein were at Covenant Theological Seminary at the same time, and Robert is now a current Ph.D. candidate at the University of Leicester, researching the role of religion in America's founding era.
In their conversation, Robert and Damein draw on David Koyzis's book, Political Visions & Illusions, to make a bold statement: politics often masquerades as a modern idol, promising salvation and redemption much like religious doctrines. Their exploration then challenges us to reconsider where we place our faith and trust amidst a polarized society.
Taking a deeper dive, Damein and Robert look into the concept of political ideologies as "isms" that offer false promises of redemption, akin to religious gospels. They highlight the dangers of viewing political opponents as heretics, fueled by echo chambers and partisan media. They underscore the importance of renouncing these ideological idols and reorienting ourselves towards the kingdom of God, advocating for a gospel that inherently carries social implications without equating salvation with social deeds. They invite us to grapple with engagement in a secularizing world, finding balance between withdrawal and deeper involvement.
In conclusion, they shift their focus to the broader social responsibilities of Christian faith, challenging the tendency to compartmentalize it as merely a personal practice. Inspired by John Stott's interpretation of being "salt and light," they encourage believers to actively create a world that mirrors God's will. They also address the misconceptions about political divides, highlighting the significance of connecting with real-life neighbors rather than relying on algorithm-driven echo chambers. They land on an emphasis on the power of feeling seen and the importance of engaging deeply with your community to gain a nuanced understanding of today's political landscape.
For more about Robert, you can visit his website, and find the episodes on his podcast going further into David Koyzis's work here: Every Square Inch
great, robert, it's great to be with you. Yeah, thanks for having me, thanks for joining us. Uh, we this is actually going to be the last resource that we're releasing in a season this year, in 2024, where we started in July with a sermon series called Following Jesus in Politics, and every fall we do a Following Jesus in series, and this year it was politics, and so, in terms of timing, this is just a couple of days after the election, which wasn't the original plan, but here we are, so that's interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, probably works out a little better.
Speaker 1:Exactly, that's right. One of the things that I appreciate so much about your podcast is public. Theology is what you're after and what you're doing, and, of course, politics and government are a gift. They're ordained by God, but in a fallen world it presents unique challenges to navigate, but nevertheless, it's a gift for the common good, and so, as you think about that out loud on your podcast, I've always learned and recently you just did a whole series on one of my, if not my favorite, book on this topic by David Koitsis, and you did the heavy lifting that someone needed to do and I'm so glad you did it which was to synthesize and elaborate on his thinking.
Speaker 1:In fact, in 2020, I recommended that book to a handful of my friends, and three of them in particular. They all three responded don't ever recommend this book to anyone else because it's so dense. Don't ever recommend this book to anyone else. And yet I'm honored that you thought that I would understand it, which I just thought was so funny. So you did the heavy lifting that I was unable to do, so thank you for that.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what I love doing. I'm not necessarily a smart guy, but I like to take smart people and make it accessible to normal people.
Speaker 1:Well, you're really good at it, truly, and so let's go ahead and jump in. Yeah, all right. So I mentioned David Coitus, and how you unpacked his ideologies is what he calls them and you talk about how they function as modern idols, essentially, and all of these ideologies have their own version of salvation, as all idol systems do, of course. So here's the beginning. Can you walk us through how that works? And particularly, the question is how do ideologies go from political theories, in this case, to something that competes for our faith?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think there's so many things at play. I think, first and foremost, what's taking place is that, you know, as America increasingly goes the way of Western society, which becomes essentially a post-Christian secular age, which becomes essentially a post-Christian secular age, what Charles Taylor, who of course has done the most work in this idea of secularity, what he argues is that the secular project is unsustainable because people are religious. It's impossible not to be religious. To use the language that Keller used a lot. We're going to be worshiping something false gods, all that stuff. Expressions of religion diminish as traditional communities diminish, you know, neighborhoods and clubs and even the workplace and so forth, as all of these places where we used to find these religious impulses satisfied go away. We have to find other places to express these. We have to find other places to express these, and so what you're seeing in our country has lost that balanced, communal aspect and has become this deeply entrenched religion in itself, and I just think that is because something has to fill the void in our society as religion decreases. So I think, first and foremost, that is what's going on. We have to be religious, we're taking away religion, we're going to find it somewhere, and politics is kind of low hanging fruit for that for a variety of reasons. But yeah, so that politics, that, who are making that obvious connection, that we're elevating this thing way disproportionately. We're worshiping politics and politicians. That's not a new take.
Speaker 2:I think what sets Coyce's scholarship apart is he goes further, by going beyond the idea of, yeah, sure, we make an idol of politics and politicians and ideologies and political theory and all that stuff. And he goes further to say we don't just make an idol of something, which we do, but what are we doing? When we make an idol of something, we are trusting in it for a form of salvation? What you worship, you are also trusting and I think that's what sets his work apart is that we worship our politicians, we worship our political theories and ideologies, we worship a partisan political party or whatnot, but even more so we're trusting it that what we worship offers us a gospel of sorts. And I think that's where Koizis is indispensable, where he kind of fleshes out the different, not just idols of these different ideologies, but the gospels, the plan of salvation that they offer. And so, yeah, I think it's really important scholarship, but, like you said, it's pretty difficult to access. So that's why I do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 1:I think one of the things that is so powerful about it, and how you brought it to a broader audience, is that understanding the ideologies are helpful, but understanding what it means to trust them is all the more helpful Because I think that some Christians that I've talked to especially in this election cycle but I think that this has been true for a while now because of the dynamics of a secularizing world that you already mentioned is that increasingly of a secularizing world that you already mentioned, is that increasingly, you have Christians who are either so fed up and cynical that they eject from thoughtful engagement or, increasingly, what I've noticed is that you have Christians that are also fed up but, rather than rejecting in cynicism, they move toward engagement in a way that even in their own lives they never have before.
Speaker 1:And so when I think about that, I think about there are various ways in which that's true, and there are several ideologies I think it's five that you walk through those chapters of the book and if you can remember what they are, what are they. You don't have to go into all of them if you don't want. But what are they? And here's the real question is can you unpack. What makes them in general so compelling that they almost become new gospels.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, okay, let me try. Well, and that in itself is why I also think Coyce's work is important, because he says there's much infighting within the Republican Party of what is conservatism, and you know because, Trump is Trump a conservative, I mean, I guess, but far more a populist, far more a nationalist.
Speaker 2:So you kind of got that nationalist aspect of that. And then what's really going on right now, post-election, is fighting within the democrat party of trying to define what it is we we actually believe and stand for and are going to be moving forward it's just not as simple as democrat republican.
Speaker 2:Yes so let me try to let me let me off the top of my head. So the big one's liberalism, um, um, all of us are our liberalism, not in the way we tend to use the word liberal, which is just a progressive political thought, but liberalism in the classic liberal sense of Western society which our country is based on. So you've got classic liberalism, you have nationalism, you have conservatism, you have socialism. And what's another ism I'm missing? You said five, yeah, you said conservatism right. Yeah, I said conservatism, liberalism, socialism, I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's so funny. I thought, if I'm'm gonna ask that question, I should write well, you would think if you're interviewing the guy who actually recorded the podcasts and and read the stuff he'd remember.
Speaker 2:Dude, that's so long ago though, I know um.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what do we see? Marxism or socialism, socialism yeah, okay I don't remember what he called it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know. I had to go back and look in my notes what I covered, because he actually has a chapter in there I did not include and maybe that's what you're thinking about which is he made up a word democratism. Basically democracy, majority rule is another ism, but I don't know. I did not include that for a variety of reasons, but I might be missing one.
Speaker 2:But anyway, that's okay, that's great. Let's go with those way that we have subscribed to, with an idolatrous religious fervor which then buys into a what I call a government gospel, a false gospel that each of those isms promises.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:You know their own fall, their own redemptive story their own. The big one is their own eschatology their own. This will finally set the world free. If we just subscribe to that ideology to its rightful end and get everybody to buy into it and submit to it. That will save the world.
Speaker 1:That's right, it's so good, exactly, and he. One of the things that's so powerful about that is he aligns each one of these isms in what we would call a four-chapter narrative that the gospel, this creation, fall, redemption, consummation but really we can think about. Everyone has a view and these ideologies are no different in a way, things ought to be and how they fell from that, what redemption looks like and what they will be if that solution actually comes about. And it's and he does a masterful job of that. I really loved how you called on the government gospels. It's just so true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so true, yeah, that, yeah, to be fair, that's that. That's something I just did. That's he doesn't use that language. To be fair, that's something I just. He doesn't use that language, I just used that. I just made that up to summarize what he's getting at with each of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is great. I think it's the way I experienced it was not only did you synthesize his work, but you elaborated on it in a creative way, and that's an example of how you did it, and I think people can really resonate with that when they think about it. All right, so one of the things that you mentioned is polarization, and polarization has a number of. There's a number of reasons as to why, but when we think about that, we talk about Koiz's idea of political ideologies as competing idols, that once we commit to those, we now have sides essentially. Once we commit to those, we now have sides essentially.
Speaker 1:And so I'm curious in your series, you highlighted how these gospels, these government gospels, make us see political opponents as heretics rather than as fellow humans, and that was so powerful. I remember where I was when I listened to that and I paused the podcast and rewinded it. I didn't rewind, I backed it up, and so I just thought it was so helpful. So what you said specifically is that because there are gospels, we can't just disagree with people. Essentially, they're heretics because this is our religion. Now.
Speaker 1:And so here's my question is you can elaborate on that if you'd like, but how can Christians resist this urge? I mean, how can we resist it, especially when we were surrounded by echo chambers, partisan media and all the like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so many answers. I mean the obvious answer is to renounce the idol and reorient ourselves to the kingdom of God. That's the easy answer, which I don't want to just like do the obligatory spiritual nod toward. I do think our own repentance and worship would be step one, but I do think that part of it is a categorical error of not understanding, or maybe a theological error of just not understanding, the ordained role of the state and our, and then maybe so I think let me get off the state first because, yes, I think actually doing some research into the scriptures, the Christian tradition and how they have had crazy opinions about the state throughout its history, but actually studying the scriptures and Christian thought tradition about what is the role of the state in God's world is important because we're so disproportionate in our trust in the coercive power of the state.
Speaker 1:So I do think that is.
Speaker 2:But let me give a better answer. I think it's probably less an overemphasis and disproportionate understanding of the significance of the state and I think probably more so a diminished understanding of the role of the church in society and the significance of the gospel with its social implications.
Speaker 2:And what I mean by that is we, rightly and when I say we, you and I come from the same theological tradition and so we would say we would reject the social gospel. We would say that the gospel we are saved. You know the classic tense of Reformation grace alone, faith alone through Christ alone, not by works, all that stuff. And so we, rightfully, are very careful not to say that salvation comes through social good deeds. Feeding the poor, caring for the least, this is how one is saved, amen. So I reject the social gospel. The problem is is that when, in our rejection of the social gospel we forget, we buy into this truncated gospel that says it only has vertical spiritual implications and it doesn't have horizontal social implications, meaning, here's what I like to tell people I reject the social gospel and I believe with all my heart that the gospel is social.
Speaker 2:I believe in a gospel social, not a social gospel. If you just flip the wordings of that, then you're really on to something of the evangelical. Christian faith is an exclusively individualistic, vertical relationship with God where essentially the nature of my faith is I go to church on Sunday, I read the scriptures in the morning, I maybe go to a Bible study throughout the week, I listen to Christian music and Christian podcasts and I do all these Christian things in my own personal life and that is the extent of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. That is such a truncated vision of the Christian life when you really all of those things are true and this must overflow into real social implications toward our neighbors and toward society is woefully deficient in understanding how the gospel of the kingdom is intended to change the world around us. But because they are Christians with the Spirit of God inside of them and they long to see thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, they long to see a world that reflects the ways and will of God. They know they want a different world, but they don't see how them, as followers of Jesus, is supposed to be a means to that different world. They have to go somewhere with those longings If the Christian faith is just this individual relationship with Jesus with no social implications.
Speaker 2:But I have this stirring inside that I want social change to reflect God's order. Well then they say well, I guess that's the state's role, I guess the government is supposed to give me the world I long to see. And so I think it's probably a failure to comprehend and to internalize and apply the significance of the gospel life socially, that it is true that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone. But we know we don't have to like wonder. We know explicitly from scripture that when we stand before the judgment of Christ, he is not going to say do you have faith in me, do you believe in me? You know that old evangelistic question when you stand before God, did you kind of? Do you have a campus ministry background?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I came to faith through campus ministry.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay. So the classic evangelism question is when you stand before God someday, how certain are you that he's going to let you into heaven, or something like that? And it's trying to get you to this like cognitive, intellectual answer that says I shouldn't come in, I only have faith in Jesus, he's my only hope, all that stuff. True, true, true, true, true. But when we actually get Jesus described that moment, he doesn't ask why should I let you into heaven? For the right answer. He doesn't ask why should I let you into heaven? For the right answer. He doesn't ask do you have faith in me? He just simply says did you care for the least of me? And if you did, without even knowing it, come on in. And if you didn't, I'm sorry. I know you say that you knew me, but I never knew you away from me.
Speaker 2:And it's this really terrifying passage of scripture that should cause all of us to you know. But the point of it is not that we're saved by feeding the poor, visiting the prisoner, taking in the widowed and orphan, clothing the naked, all that stuff that shows up in the least of these passages. It's that Jesus knows my followers who have faith in me, that is alive and active will be doing all of these things. They are bound to love for neighbor if they love me, and so why are we talking about this? I'm totally off the question.
Speaker 1:No keep going.
Speaker 2:Well, my point is is when you take away that entire part of the Christian faith and tradition candidly, this is how the early church spread. I mean, this is how the church has always advanced through its love of neighbor. When you take that entire implication away from the Christian faith, you're going to turn somewhere to make the world a better place, and I think government is obviously this alluring answer to that question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. I mean, I think that's really helpful. There's this, yeah, when you have an impoverished gospel or a truncated gospel, it's not that it's untrue, it's just not the whole truth. And so because we're created by God in the image of God and we desire to see this world more like its original design, then if we have this view of what the church is, that's very narrow, then insofar as the Holy Spirit is at work in us, we will turn somewhere that we think it is their responsibility. And but in the desire to do that, all sorts of cattywampus things can happen. No doubt about it.
Speaker 1:And it reminds me of I mean, by the way, that passage that you raised there with Jesus. It is confronting in the most important and wonderful way and haunting, and obviously the Lord Jesus says this. And then it reminds me of John Stott's helpful commentary on the Sermon on the Mount, but particularly salt and light, and he said a number of helpful things about that. But one thing that I remember regularly in these conversations is that oftentimes the church has taught and understood in principle what it means to be salt, that is to say to preserve culture by speaking the truth, and that's very important. So evangelism would be the example that you're saying, but Stott also says. He also says and light.
Speaker 1:So Jesus says you are salt and light, and light is this idea Stott unpacks where we're not satisfied with broken systems in the world, we're not satisfied with those who are oppressed and disadvantaged. But actually the church being salt and light is both to speak the truth, but also because you have light in darkness, you don't hide it, you actually go and you bless others with it, which is much more than simply what you say. It's also the life you live. It's the life you live for others, and the most beautiful thing that we have so central to our tradition, as you said, is that none of that is to secure an identity for ourselves or to work for an identity or a resume, but rather to work from this reality that we've been made right with God and we are now sent into the world from this identity, from this new life and this religious fervor. I hear you saying, and I see it in the political conversation right, and one of the reasons I think you're right is that there's a division because of an impoverished gospel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even that passage you brought up and that's brilliant. I don't remember his words there, but he's brilliant as usual. But even taking it further to your point is right. After salt and light, therefore, let your light so shine before men that they may see your good deeds. That's right. Glory to the Father who is in heaven. Grace alone, not by works of the law, really need a compelling vision, for, okay, we're not saved by our works, but what role do works play within the Christian salvation and how important they are holding Paul and James together and allowing that tension to complement each other, not to oppose each other.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But bringing it back to political conversation, I do think we have an impoverished view of the state and scripture and the Christian tradition.
Speaker 1:Sorry, my dog's scratching herself and you can hear her.
Speaker 2:I love it. Yeah, of course I think we need to really understand what God teaches us about the role of the state in his world, but probably even more so we need to recapture what the gospel compels us to do. Like you, take my work with Christ for Kentucky. There are absolutely times when what I want to see happen in Kentucky intersects with the role of the state, and for that I am not afraid to spend time in Frankfurt, our capitals of Frankfurt. To spend time in Frankfurt with state legislators advocating for policy that I think would bless the bluegrass. I'm not afraid to do that when I think this fits the role of the state. No-transcript what's going on. And then the secular stuff I said, combined all of that with this need to express our religion, and politics is an easy place to do that.
Speaker 1:Yes, All right. So on that note, one of the things that, as I've engaged folks, sometimes they can respond negatively. When a pastor, for example, says well, you know, the government's not your savior, Don't treat them like your savior, right, and their response is a little more like pragmatism. Pragmatic Like, well, listen, this is going to hell in a handbasket. So we got to do something.
Speaker 2:And what?
Speaker 1:I love about it is that it's not an either or what you just described. It's a Christian vision. It's a Christian vision. And so with that, I'm going to ask you so we've warned people of the so-called government gospels and how we all can be tempted there. No-transcript.
Speaker 2:Say that again. You're saying how would I disciple them on who to, were you saying?
Speaker 1:who to vote for and how to vote. That's a good clarification, or the opposite of that? No, yeah, I mean probably the opposite of that. But particularly what I'm getting at is that you have, as you said, a positive vision, a Christian vision for engaging in the world. Of course, we're aware of the temptations for government gospels, as you said, but how?
Speaker 2:would you speak to Christians, particularly in how they can grow their imagination for what it means to faithfully engage civic responsibility for their neighbor?
Speaker 1:Yeah, civic responsibility beyond the voting booth is what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's included, but even beyond the voting booth Included, but that your civic duty goes beyond, every four years, going into a big meeting, yes, yes, of Jamie Smith or James K Smith's. Well, he's resurrecting Augustine and his thoughts of how we are creatures compelled by our loves. But how is love formed? It's not this internal introspective trying to change the desires of our hearts introspectively, but that we actually are changed through our habits, through our practices. You are what you love, but what you love can be formed by what you do, and so I say all that to say I tell Christians, I tell Christians, just by faith, through sacrificial love, give it a try. Find something in your community, find a problem in your community that you can fix. Find a neighbor in your neighborhood that needs to be loved. Find a cause of justice that resonates with you and get behind it. Just go, just start practicing the kingdom and watch how it becomes addicting, watch how you start coming alive as a servant of Jesus, making a difference in the world, and watch how quickly the political theatrics kind of fade away and you start to get to see real change locally and you really get excited about it and you want to do more of it and I think so much of it is.
Speaker 2:We just never, by faith, sacrificially embracing the inconveniences of love, step outside of our media echo chambers enthralled in this political stuff. We never just shut it off and just say I'm just going to get busy, I'm just. You know, me and my family are just speaking personally. Our family just said we've got a. Our neighborhood is a stereotypical middle-class suburban neighborhood, but right next to our neighborhood is one of the most impoverished areas of our city and with one of the most under-resourced elementary schools in our city, actually in our state. And we just said, as a family, we're, we're, we're coming around that school, um, we're, we're going to serve that school, we're going to get to know that school, we're going to find out ways we can help that school. That school is just going to be our outlet of Christian activism.
Speaker 2:I mean, my, my job is is greater, but I'm talking about my as a father, husband. I'm a family, that's our thing. And you know, you get so busy with the causes of love, justice and mercy that you kind of forget politics. You don't have time. You don't have time to be enthralled in social media algorithms, because you're just out there making a difference, and I just think this answer is so much more simple than a sermon series and a podcast series. It's like hey, find something to do in your community, give it a try. Make mistakes, learn from the mistakes. Give neighbor love a try and watch what happens.
Speaker 1:Give neighbor love a try and watch what happens. So good, so good. I love that as a simple but robust positive vision for how Christians can engage in love. Yeah, all right. So one final question as we wrap up here, robert. So I'm not going to say what is the misconception, but if you had to choose one that comes to your mind as we think about politics and engaging them as Christians, what do you think is one misconception or pitfall that you see Christians falling into when it comes to trying to engage politics, and how would you encourage them to think differently?
Speaker 2:encourage them to think differently. Well, the big misconception, and the entire reason of that podcast series I did would be everything we've discussed so far, but I don't want to just neglect that. The biggest misconception is the state is the final arbiter of social change and that the only hope we have of a new world is a government gospel that promises we can fix the world if you'll just trust us and give us your allegiance. So that's the big one. So, outside the big one, I would say probably the biggest misconception we're buying into right now is as much as I believe in that podcast series that I just did and as much as I believe that this is really harming our nation, the partisan idolatry and deeply entrenched um divide all that, I believe, is true, uh, but it's probably true, it's probably most true online and in social media. I think the biggest misconception is that our neighbors, um, all around us, are enthralled in this in ways that we are, but when they're actually not.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's a good word, especially the working class, that that you know this, I think, I think, uh, I think the election that we just had as a referendum on how we view the working class of America, who don't have time for all the political nonsense that we get wrapped up in they're just you know they're working hard, they're trying to provide for their uh, wrapped up in, they're just you know they're working hard. They're trying to provide for their, their families, they're, they're, they're trying to make it and they don't. They just don't have time for this. And I, you know, candidly, I know we're not here to do another podcast. If you want to talk about the Trump phenomenon, but I think that's a big part of it is is he made them feel. He made them feel they don't have time for political theory, but he made them feel seen and there's a lot of power. Did you see the? I know you're trying to keep these short. Am I allowed?
Speaker 1:to look. No, you're good, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Did you see the little McDonald's stunt that Trump did?
Speaker 1:I did and I heard him talk about it on a certain podcast that he was on.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I thought there was a really interesting line there. They were coming through the drive I mean, of course, all those I'm not naive enough to know All that was staged, I get it, but they were coming through and he was handing people their food at the drive-thru and one lady said oh my gosh, you know, it's so great to meet you. I'm just an ordinary person. He looked at her and said you're not ordinary. You're not ordinary. That is literally a quote from CS Lewis.
Speaker 2:I know Trump wasn't quoting CS Lewis and I know, and I know I'm not naive to trump here. I, I know this is all political theater, I get it. I get it. Whether he genuinely believes that that are not. He's a billionaire with now the most powerful man in the world, I, you know. Whether he truly believes that she, these aren't disordered people, I don't know. But he looked at her, gave her a cs lewis quote and said that you know where, cs lewis, there are no ordinary people. There are no ordinary people. He looked at her. It's those ordinary people.
Speaker 2:I think that we are missing Even Christian evangelicals who enjoy discussions like this.
Speaker 2:We're missing ordinary people who they're not going to listen to this podcast, you know I think it's important for people to listen to this podcast, but, but there are. I would say, if you want to discover the biggest political misconception we have right now, it would be walk out your front door, go next door, knock on the door and get to know your neighbor and you will see, um, you will see, uh, that there's a lot going on with them beyond uh, who they voted for, and and and, and. You're going to listen to them and you're gonna learn from them and you could, you know, maybe you're, maybe your neighbor's a Trump, huge Trump voter and supporter and listen to them and find out why and charitably, not just dismiss half our country, as obviously you all are, all you know racist bigots that's right. If you voted for this man, actually listen to them and they, maybe they're a huge Democrat Harris supporter, or whatever. Listen to them and and and find out why.
Speaker 2:But I just think. I think we're missing each other in real, in the real world. We're missing our neighbors because the algorithm of social media has become our neighbor and that's a neighbor that will only love what we love, hate what we hate, believe what we believe, reinforce all of it. Get to know your real neighbors and you'll see how misguided our politics truly are.
Speaker 1:Well, I think we'll end there. It's fantastic. Thank you for that, robert. I appreciate it and I'm going to encourage people to go listen to the whole series, where you thoughtfully unpack in 25 to 30 minutes each one of those points from Alexis's book. Thank you for joining us.
