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The NewCity Orlando All of Life Podcast
The All of Life podcast, hosted by Nate Claiborne, provides weekly episodes that help further our mission to call, form, and send disciple-makers. At NewCity, we want to see Orlando flourish by filling it with people who say "Follow me as I follow Jesus in all of life."
The NewCity Orlando All of Life Podcast
How to Read Numbers with Dr Michael Allen
In this episode, Nate discusses with Dr Michael Allen how we should approach reading Leviticus in our M'Cheyne Bible Reading plan. While the genealogies present a roadblock for many readers, they serve an importance purpose in both the book of Numbers, and the Pentateuch as a whole, which is tracing the unfolding promises of God.
For more resources for the M'Cheyne Bible Reading Plan, click here.
Welcome to another episode of the All of Life podcast. I'm your host, Nate Claiborne, and once again we have Dr Michael Allen to talk with us about our Bible reading plan. How are we doing today, Mike Doing?
Speaker 2:great. It's rainy, it's dreary, but it's good to be talking about the Bible with you.
Speaker 1:You know it's a theme I feel like. Last time it was rainy and dreary as well, but something about talking about the book of Numbers warms the heart.
Speaker 2:There you go, that's right.
Speaker 1:So we commented briefly last time that we're just doing these updates monthly to kind of give big picture overviews of some of the new books that we're starting. People can go back and listen to this episode on Psalms that Ben and I did, because we're still kind of in the thick of the Psalms and we will probably cover some of the other books that we're starting later this month Isaiah, hebrews, james, peter. There's several episodes that will be in the app that people can go find for those books, but one that they can't find is on the book of Numbers which, as you're listening to this, if you've been keeping up with the Bible reading plan, you've actually made it through probably the hardest part, because you've read the genealogies, those 11, 12 chapters of name after name after name that you probably can't pronounce, but you kind of are trying to stick with it and read through. Hopefully you noticed the context for our benediction that we use from number six. You would have touched on that, but just by way of intro.
Speaker 1:There's a reason number starts off with name after name after name. There's a reason numbers starts off with name after name after name and it is demonstrating this is the outworking of the promises to Abraham. He's become a great nation. He has many descendants. It's also rooting things in space and time. These are real people and God cares about real people and real people's lives, and even people that are just a name mentioned in passing and numbers, and that's maybe we wonder more, but uh, it's just showing that it and this isn't the first genealogy either we've.
Speaker 1:Genealogies are actually kind of significant through the bible as much as we tend to skip over and pass through them, so to speak. But now that we've gotten through the genealogies, we kind of we know all these names, we know all the players. The story is about to unfold. I think people would have read Numbers 13 yesterday, even depending on when this is released. So they heard the report from the spies which is going to set in motion everything else that is to come. So, mike, take us from there. What are we looking at? Moving forward?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean mean, like you said, this can sometimes feel like a slowly starting movie where you're taking in the expanse.
Speaker 2:The credits are at the beginning. Uh, you know it's it's. It's a movie where you see a lot of the scenery, perhaps you you get different sketches of characters sort of coming to some sort of meeting point. Um, and there is a reason for that. This is trying to root the story in real space time history, as you underline, and we continue to see that as important. I mean, when we profess the creeds, the great christian creeds, we we name a guy's sin right Crucified under Pontius Pilate, and we're not just being mean or vindictive. It's an attempt to specify that when we talk about the story of Jesus too, it's in real space-time history and we named the Roman responsible because that would be most easily identifiable by folks. So it's just a reminder. The Bible is not just from the real world but actually makes a point to to convey that in a way that could be checked by others.
Speaker 1:You bring up the Pontius Pilate mentioned. It was just a great, because I think otherwise people would think. All these other things that are in the creed are very significant about Jesus, life, life and the Father, almighty and the Holy Spirit, and all of a sudden we get this one random Roman governor mentioned. Why is he there? And you underlined it. Well, yeah, he's a real person that has a real history, and it anchors all of these other theological things to history is important because these events actually happened.
Speaker 2:So this is a story happening in the real world, in real space and time, and that means we ought to step back and just think about narrative sequence and geographic location. And you know, numbers begin saying the Lord spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tent of meeting, on the first day of the second month in the second year after they'd come out of the land of Egypt. So right there we get a lot by way of location. They're this side by a couple of years of being liberated from slavery in Egypt.
Speaker 2:They're this side of meeting God at Sinai. They're this side of the tabernacle being constructed according to God's design. At the end of the book of Exodus, god's glory entering there and just like Leviticus before it, so here in Numbers, god is speaking from that tent to Moses so that the people will be instructed through him to Moses, so that the people will be instructed through him. We also see that they're still in the wilderness, so they're not yet in the land of Canaan, but they're no longer in slavery in Egypt.
Speaker 1:Right, a lot happened in Leviticus, but one thing that didn't happen is they didn't go anywhere.
Speaker 2:Yep. So we are still very much in that situation. They are in this sojourning migrant pilgrim sort of situation and that's really important to understand. The struggles that are going to set in, as well as the kind of spiritual guidance that are given are commands that you give to folks who aren't well established, who don't have mass resources, who don't have cities and towns and storehouses. You'll see that kind of instruction in Deuteronomy for when they're actually going to be in the land. But here it's a call to people who need to trust, who need to hope, who need to press on. Call to people who need to trust, who need to hope, who need to press on, who need to act, who are pursuing things they haven't yet enjoyed and need to do so by faith in the one true God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So that kind of that gives us even more context for what's about to happen. As the story is going to start picking up, players are established, where are we going? What are we doing now? And so we just got a report back from the spies. The land is there, we can take it, but also, by the way, there's giants we felt like grasshoppers among them. Two spies are all for it, the rest are not. And then the people say, yeah, I don't know if we want to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, not only yeah, I don't know. But let's get new leaders, let's go back to Egypt and, as you read into the beginning of chapter 14, they are ready to execute a coup and they are ready to head back to slavery in Egypt and at this point they think the regularity of life in Egypt is appealing to this uncertainty of life as migrant sojourners in the wilderness.
Speaker 1:At least we had garlics, leeks and onions.
Speaker 2:That's right, yeah, you lived in this massive empire where there were resources, where you knew what to expect day by day, and that provides a lot of comfort relative to uncertainty, relative to the unknown. And what we see there in chapter 14 is really significant. In fact there's a strong argument to be made that it explains sort of the struggle of the entire book. We can get to that in a minute. But the story is this waves of struggle, you know.
Speaker 2:The first problem you named here is they refuse to follow the Lord's command to cross the river and to seize the land. And the Lord approaches Moses. How long will this people not obey me? How long will they not believe in me, is his question. And the Lord comes in judgment and Moses, like in Exodus 33, moses intercedes again and the Lord pledges not to wipe Israel out, but he does say this generation will die and it will only be their children who I eventually take into the promised land. That leads Dennis Olson, a wonderful commentator on the book, to say this is about the death of the old generation, the birth of the new. That's the transitional move here. And Moses delivers this message.
Speaker 2:And again there's another script at the end of chapter 14. They hear the message and they take exactly the wrong instruction from it. Moses is saying God's going to leave you in the wilderness now as punishment for your stiff-necked sin, and you're going to die, but your children God will show favor to and take into the land eventually. And they immediately say we're going to go attack. And Moses says no, no, no, the Lord won't be with you, the ark won't be with you, I won't be with you. You will get whooped. You had your chance and we're told they presumed and they went across and they attacked and, as expected and warned, they got defeated.
Speaker 2:What's fascinating is to observe that, while these may seem very different sins, they're lethargic and lazy and they won't act at the beginning of the chapter. They're presumptive and arrogant and they go and do what they ought not at the end. It's a sin of commission and a sin of omission. It's a sin of presumption and a sin of despair. We might think those are very different kind of personalities and screw ups.
Speaker 2:The central problem gets picked up by Deuteronomy 1 and then Hebrews 3, both refer to this episode and both name it as a sin of unbelief. They fail to trust God and you can actually see that in Numbers 14. The rebuke of God and the judgment of God, not as a failure to see God as capable of defeating the big imposing folks on the other side of the river, but rather as a rebuke to their self-perception. We must be stronger than we thought, we must be more capable of taking them. And so they presume and they go and act foolishly. And so in both episodes we see Israel failing to trust and to act in a way that manifests that trust. And their failure to trust takes the form first of despair and inactivity and then of presumption and arrogant activity, and I think we can identify with both of those in various ways. We can also identify with the root problem. As Deuteronomy 1 and Hebrews 3 will put it unbelief. Unbelief is the warning to take from this passage.
Speaker 1:Yeah which is something we can't say that we've moved beyond that Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that Right. Yeah. Hebrews 3 brings it up to offer a warning that that generation's not able to enter God's rest in the land because of unbelief, and that's being presented to Christians in you know the generation after Christ as a similar warning. Don't you be like that. You learn from their mistake.
Speaker 1:You've from their mistake. You've also got the twin concern of idolatry, which is what Paul's going to pick up on in 1 Corinthians 10, where he details I mean, it's kind of interesting If you're not as familiar with numbers, which, when you read 1 Corinthians 10 a few months ago, he talks about all these stories and you're like when did all that happen? It's like, well, it happened in numbers and it's you know, as much as we're prone to struggle with unbelief, we're also prone to struggle with idolatry. Not that those are two radically different things, but they're often two sides of the same coin. I won't believe in the one true God and obey his word. I will trust in this God that I've fashioned for myself, or this God of the age or something like that. And so Paul's warning us against that and saying these stories in Numbers are written for our instruction, for our benefit, for us to grow in wisdom from yeah, and Numbers really paints in such a crafted way that must mark intentionality and care.
Speaker 2:It depicts the negative force or power, the terrible effect of idolatry and unbelief, and we see that in that the sins are described in two ways. We know that there are ten murmurings by the Israelites. That's named or numbered, but in numbers. We have actually seven episodes that are described at length, and both those numbers are significant. Ten, of course, patterns after the Ten Commandments, and it shows that basically as many words as God gives to describe the good life, so we match it, sadly, in the story of Israel, with disobediences. The seven, though, clearly maps onto the number seven from Genesis 1 and 2. And if.
Speaker 2:Genesis 1 and 2 describe seven acts or days that depict a world being ordered for wholeness, for life with God. Then what we see in numbers are these seven murmurings that really show the move to disorder and the inability to continue living with God, and they're so artfully crafted. The first and the seventh, the second and the sixth, the third and the fifth. Each of those pairs share a common prompt or idol, whether it's bread or it's water, or it's the leaders. In each of those cases there's this ordered structure, what we literally call a chiasm, where the first and the last match and the next and the next to last match, and so we see this clearly intentional. It's artful, it's describing how the idolatrous unbelieving heart will find a variety of things, and so we're not surprised in life, psychologically and spiritually, that somebody who's idolatrously pursuing one thing in unbelief, they're going to start doing that with other things.
Speaker 2:Typically, you don't lead an undisciplined life for long in just one area. We're not segmented or fragmented, and just as that's meant to be a good, that can also be a harm and an undoing. And actually the central episode is the one that you named, when the spy report comes back in numbers 13. And when we see their two responses in numbers 14, that is the fourth and central episode of murmuring. It's the one described at double the length of any of the other six and, as in any chiasm, the central episode is the one that paradigmatically explains the rest. So we see that this kind of idolatry and unbelief that are named there in chapter 14, they are really what we're to see and perceive in all these other struggles and they explain why the old must die and something new must begin, because the life of unbelief, the life of idolatry, it brings no hope, it leads only to despair, it brings no peace, it leads only to despair, it brings no peace, it leads only to chaos and disquiet.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So that gives a really tragic kind of foreshadowing to what we're going to be reading through the rest of Numbers. It's kind of like the fate has already we don't want to say it's fate, but the decision has already been made and it's just getting outworked, Even to the point of it affecting Moses made and it's just getting outworked, uh, even to the point of it affecting Moses. I mean, I think we we get the story in a few more chapters, maybe next week, where we find out why Moses doesn't actually make it into the promised land. I mean, he's been. Even he gets worn down over time by all the people's idolatry and unbelief and you know, I think we used to.
Speaker 1:It's not a joke, really, but I think it's. Is it right around here? Is it Numbers 13 where it talks about Moses being, one way of translating, as the most humble man on the face of the earth? But it's like, well, if he's the most humble man on the face of the earth, I don't know if he would say that, but the word can also mean afflicted and you're like, oh yeah, he, yeah, If you've really sat with Moses, he's really been trying to do the right thing. He's saved the people's neck multiple times and yet they still grumble, complain, want to replace him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, moses is a key character. I mean we see here, as we saw as far back as Exodus and as far reaching as into Deuteronomy. On the one hand, of course, moses plays this pivotal role because the people keep screwing up and judgment's going to befall them and they need someone to intercede. And Moses plays the role of mediator, and we saw that way back in Exodus 19. They get to the mountain and God calls them up to meet with them at Sinai, and the people say we can't do that, we'll die. We're impure, you go.
Speaker 2:Well, moses is impure too, but someone's got to meet with God, yeah. And so he's the, the leader deputized, who is bearing a treacherous calling and yet doing it on behalf of the people. And we see it here, as in Exodus 33, when there's a heinous sin, moses intercedes and he pleads before God with success. God responds to his prayers and though there is a judgment that falls upon the people, it's not as harsh as it might be, it's moderated by mercy that his prayers have asked for. And so Moses is a type or a sign of the kind of mediator we need, but, like you named, he's not capable of being the kind of mediator that we eventually need. He's worn down, he himself is imperfect and so, in a real sense, he's eventually going to have to die, and he's going to have to die outside the land, because he's bearing this calling that he is not ultimately capable of upholding. And it's a signal of a mediator we need in the fact that even this most remarkable man, one of whom Deuteronomy says, there's not yet been a prophet like him. We need one still greater, and the law doesn't tell us what that must be. But as we read on in the Bible, we learn that mystery is revealed in that God himself assumes human form and takes the role of Messiah on our behalf.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it fulfills that picture that we get from Moses, and we could also look at Moses as saying, not Moses as saying, but Moses' story as showing us the contrast of life of faith versus life under the law. And if Moses is under the law, he has to obey it perfectly in order to enter into the promised land. And so the one I mean it's a flagrant infraction, it's direct disobedience. And so he gets picked up in the New Testament as this figure that Jesus fulfills the pattern that he represents, but he's not drawn on as the example of the life of faith, the way Abraham is Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, there's another thing about the law and about sort of the moral order here in numbers that we can observe, and that's the way in which there's a poetic justice that is so ironic and seemingly paradoxical. So you look at Numbers 13 and 14, and the people aren't just lazy, they give a reason for why they don't want to cross the river and obey God and take the land. They see the big people over there and they say, if we do that, our children will be slaughtered over there. And they say, if we do that, our children will be slaughtered. And so they pose it in the form of protecting the more vulnerable right. The women and children will be slaughtered.
Speaker 2:What do we see in God's judgment that befalls them when they refuse to go? God says you will die in the wilderness, only your children, who you thought you were protecting, only they will enter the land and I will be the one to carry them over. There's a rich irony or a poetic justice in the way in which claiming to care for the children, apart from God's design, it leads to a judgment in that regard. And how often is that not the case that what we think we're doing often is so terribly counterproductive.
Speaker 2:yeah, if it's done apart from God's design and from his instruction yeah if it's done, apart from trust and what he reveals, we often are not like a well-functioning body, but like one marred by an autoimmune disease, where our best efforts to cleanse and to heal are actually counterproductive and harm ourselves.
Speaker 1:Maybe that theme gets picked up as well in the New Testament, with this idea of the works of the flesh versus the life of the spirit, the flesh being your in different ways you could define it. But this instinct to self-preserve, to make sure I have everything I need to look out for the self over and against caring for the other. And you're being called to follow Christ and live the life according to the spirit, and you get the contrast in Galatians and elsewhere. Live life according to the spirit and you get the. You know the contrast in galatians and elsewhere.
Speaker 2:It's just a different way of talking about the narrative that we get depicted in numbers of this constant temptation to unbelief, idolatry, the flesh versus following god, following the spirit yeah, and that's a great phrase to bring in nate that the idea of think, thinking or living according to the flesh, um, the language paul used in remens 8, for instance, rather, or living according to the flesh, the language Paul used in Romans 8, for instance, rather than living according to the spirit, living according to the flesh.
Speaker 2:Another way to think about it is to say they are being very calculating and in a real sense they're calculating as we might imagine people in the Pentagon calculating.
Speaker 2:They look at their strength, they look at their opponent's strength, they game it out and they assess the odds of what might happen.
Speaker 2:The problem is they game it out in what we could today call a thoroughly secularized form. They have no concern for the potential that God who's calling them there will be the God who delivers them there, and that's why one key thing we need to watch for in Numbers is that their unbelief and their idolatry is so often paired with forgetfulness. They forget the wonders God has done in defeating Pharaoh, in the plague cycle, in delivering them from slavery, in bringing them through the sea, in providing for them in so many ways thus far in the wilderness. I mean quail and baked goods show up to feed them on the regular and yet they forget these just supernatural gifts and they calculate as though it's just up to them and their strength, or it's just limited by them and their weakness, and so numbers. It reminds us of the terrible cost of forgetting God's wonders and of the significance for us to practice the art, the craft of remembrance if we're going to journey by faith.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is a great way to conclude our time here talking about numbers, because it also sets us up for Deuteronomy, where remembrance is going to be a key thing and the need to remember. And as people work their way through numbers, they're going to have a better sense of when they get to Deuteronomy, who's actually being called on to remember. It's the children who came out of Egypt are supposed to now, as adults, teach things, pass things on to their children so that they don't forget what the Lord, god, has done for them over the course of the last 40 plus years. So, mike, I'm glad we had time to sit down and talk about numbers today, and not sure when our next one is, but I'm sure we'll come up with something good that we can talk about next time.
Speaker 2:Good to be on the journey.
