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The NewCity Orlando All of Life Podcast
The All of Life podcast, hosted by Nate Claiborne, provides weekly episodes that help further our mission to call, form, and send disciple-makers. At NewCity, we want to see Orlando flourish by filling it with people who say "Follow me as I follow Jesus in all of life."
The NewCity Orlando All of Life Podcast
An Inside Look at a Circle Gathering with Casey Deloach and Charlie King
In this episode, Pastor of Formation and Mission Benjamin Kandt discusses Circles with Casey Deloach and Charlie King. They get candid about their commitment to a 28-week deep dive into the Sermon on the Mount, their strategies for memorizing scripture, and the transformative effects it's had on their lives.
Casey and Charlie share how embedding the Sermon on the Mount into their day-to-day lives has not only reshaped their perspectives but also their actions, and enhanced their relationships as a result.
You learn more about Circles at NewCity here, and access the Sermon on the Mount guide here.
To listen to the parenting sermons, you can find those here:
Hey, new City. This is Pastor Benjamin Kent. I'm here with Casey Deloach and Charlie King. I'm looking forward to talking to you guys about circles and your experience. So would you all start off, if you don't mind, just by introducing yourselves. Casey, would you go first? Sure, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I'm having us spend married to Jen 18 years. We have six kids biologically 17, all the way down to seven and two foster daughters. That is a lot of work by itself. Jen does all the heavy lifting and I get to do a little work at a place called Vaxcare and a lot of time at New City and Boy Scouts and baseball and a bunch of other stuff but full life. I'm thankful, though, that this is part of it.
Speaker 1:That's great, so helpful. How about you, charlie?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm Charlie King. I'm from Atlanta. About three years ago I worked down here in commercial real estate with Maury Carter. I've got a wonderful girlfriend eating cook that I spend a lot of time with and I'm involved pretty heavily with the Lake Highland La Crosse community as well outside of work.
Speaker 1:That's great, Awesome. And how do you all know each other? Well?
Speaker 2:you want to say, I mean, it's just kind of mutual friends.
Speaker 3:One of my coworkers and another member of our circle, conrad Carter. He kind of introduced me to KC from a mentorship perspective and from there I kind of got sucked into all of this.
Speaker 2:That was like two years ago, yeah, about two years ago. About two years ago we met. Yeah, about two years ago we met.
Speaker 3:Yeah and it's been fantastic.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's really great.
Speaker 3:It's been awesome.
Speaker 1:Two years ago you met. You've been in a circle for about a year and a half of those two years. Is that fair?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we went to had coffee a couple of times and then we read four or five books together as a group Charlie, conrad, perry and myself and it became really consistent about 18 months ago.
Speaker 1:That's helpful. So there's four men in your circle. Just to give listeners some context here, we define circles as three to six men, or three to six women following Jesus together in transparent trust. So that's what they are, but the purpose is to love God with all of themselves, love their neighbor as themselves and make disciples by giving themselves. That's the aim, that's what we're really getting after in that circle space. So there's four of you guys in your circle and you're doing something that most people at New City probably don't have experience with, which is we created in 2021, a Sermon on the Mount guide, which uses the up and out pray framework that we use in all of our circles, but it's particularly built around Jesus's greatest teaching. It's in controversial that this is the most important teaching of Jesus in Matthew five, six and seven. Now the Sermon on the Mount guide. If you look at it, it's like almost 90 pages long and there's a significant. It's a high bar commitment, and so it's a little crazy at first.
Speaker 1:It's a little bit crazy, so help us, those of us who might be looking at it. We'll put a link to the PDF in the show notes and maybe you're flipping through it and you're going what are you? Are you serious? This is really what you're asking of me. How did you guys count the cost of 28 weeks together in this Sermon on the Mount circle? What did that look like for you, Casey?
Speaker 2:I think it kind of felt a little bit like that scene in Hangover. The Hangover where Alan decides to cut his hands, says you know, we're going to have a blood bond as a wolf pack. It kind of felt a little bit like that, Actually, like not, not, not too far from that.
Speaker 3:It can't really like it was Not too far.
Speaker 2:So we you sent me the guide via a PDF and a text one day and, as I always try to do as a three two on the Instagram, try to be a people pleaser and said, sure, we'll do this. And knowing that I was going to be meeting with Charlie and Conrad and Perry the next Wednesday, I sent it to them like on maybe three days in advance. And I remember we went and met at this little restaurant over in North Colonial town and of course, I waited till last minute. I hadn't read the first 17 pages leading into it until the night before. And we get there and I'm like there's no way I'm doing this.
Speaker 1:This is insane and for me, what were the things that you had the most hesitation about?
Speaker 2:There's, you know, on page I think, it's like page 15. It's got like the 47 things you will do I'm joking, obviously, like I think it was 11 or 12, but they seem significant Like you're going to memorize the whole thing. You're going to meet every single week, unless there's some type of emergency and it's going to be rare emergencies even at that You're going to commit to meet with each other one on one on a monthly basis. You're going to tell your story, like it just it's a lot Like. You read it very. You don't have to read it carefully.
Speaker 2:Bill's very involved and just honestly, with so much going on, I just felt like, man, I don't know if I can do this. I still want to be a good dad and I want to be mentoring the disciple and the kids. I want to have, you know, ongoing devotionals with Jen and prayer time with her, and I've got a high school boys. I'm responsible for a circle there Like how am I going to do all this? And I went in there and, after I got my bagel and coffee and maybe a shot of a few other things, I told him I was like I don't think I can do this and, honestly, what flipped me was Charlie, charlie's like I have to do this. I need to do this.
Speaker 3:Okay, I don't know, I don't know about that. It was more like it was more like Casey says, hey, we're going to do this, and we were like we look at it. All right, this guy has a million different things running a company. You know, 80 kids to take care of all of this stuff going on. I don't have that much going on. I don't think I know anybody else in my entire life that has as much going on as Casey does. So he can do it. There's no reason that any of us can't do it and make time for it and that's and that kind of carries over into, you know, week by week, as it kind of goes on. You know there's some weeks you're like I just don't want to do this. This week I'm swamped in work. I got, I got to go out of town, I got to do this. It's like, well, casey's still doing it, so may as well just get it done.
Speaker 1:I love that. There's something that just happened here, which is Casey. You said you get to that space and you're like I'm not sure I'm going to do this, and Charlie's like we can do this, and that's why you said yes, yes, but he said yes because he's like, if Casey's going to do this, I guess I got to do this. Well, I told him.
Speaker 2:I was like, if we're going to do this, I have to. You're going to have to give me 24 hours, because I got to rearrange a bunch of stuff in my life because I can't do this in like four different studies in other places. So you know, jen is always accommodating to me. She's just amazing. And I told her hey, I think this is what I'm supposed to do and we're going to do our small group. Can we do some version of it at the house? And she's like she's got. You know, always goes. She smiles graciously and goes along with the craziness and said, yeah, sure, and so, with the kids on board and Jen on board, charlie and Connie and Perry it was time to roll.
Speaker 1:Okay. So that's an important piece you just said there, which is you had to make space. I mean there's this takes up calendar real estate an hour and a half every week, not to mention the hours worth of prep outside At least hours right, like the sermon's 30 to 40 minutes by itself. And then you're journaling through the guide. Yep, you're creating space to memorize the sermon of the mount for about four verses a week, something like that. And so what did that actually look like to carve out space in your schedule to do this?
Speaker 3:Well, having it be like pretty, pretty consistently, we aim to have it Wednesday morning, so that's something we can all account for. You know works with our schedules. You know we push it around a couple of times here and there, but we never go more than two weeks without without meeting. You know we'll make it up and catch up. And then, as far as outside of getting the outside worked on is doing the journaling and and going over the questions and whatnot and memorizing, you know, the questions I I do probably takes me about an hour hour or so to do it.
Speaker 3:I'm not the best at doing all of it every week. Just to be honest, it's, it's a lot. So I'll do as much as I can, or as much as I get through, and then, having having the group to discuss about it, I'll have the the packet pulled up on my laptop or whatever and Can go through it and work through it and discuss and by the time we're done with our weekly meeting I have a very good understanding of every single thing that we've gone over and and can really get Get it going so helpful yeah so when I was originally going through this, one of the ways I created space to memorize the sermon was I committed myself whenever I worked out the first 15 minutes of workout, a run, you know doing some calisthenics, whatever it was I'd always listened to the sermon of the mount on the dwell app Bible app.
Speaker 1:That was the first thing I do and so I just it was kind of on play all three chapters of it. So I got the sweep of it, you know, four or five days a week when I was exercising, and that was a helpful way for me to just kind of keep it in front of my mind. I'm curious what the particular the scripture memory piece has looked like for you guys, like how do you make that happen?
Speaker 2:I do it on morning walks. Okay, so I walk, not every morning, but most mornings, and that's that's the where I'm practicing it in my mind. I'm listening to it over and over, and then If there's like a three or four verses that I'm really struggling with oftentimes and this was Perry's idea I'll pull it up on my phone and then take a screenshot and make that my screensaver.
Speaker 2:That's so every time I look at my phone those three or four verses are right there and because there's been a few like I just They've for whatever reason, it's been really hard for me and that those are kind of the two or three, four things that have been really helpful to me. But it's, but it is a commitment. Yeah and weeks where you you're not digging in, you fall behind and it's it's obvious.
Speaker 1:So yeah, for a lot of people yeah so.
Speaker 3:So Casey has almost the entire thing memorized. Where he can just Spill off that's a gracious description the whole ceremony on the mount without looking at anything. For the the normal people it is. It is quite difficult and for me the memorization part is definitely the hardest, just because and it's not anything other than I Could do I could put more time into doing it absolutely in the, in the screensaver and the audiobook or the audio reading of it. When you know my morning commute now, that's helped a lot in terms of just repetition and even even not having the the full memorization of it, I've I know enough and have memorized enough of it, even if I can't say it word for word, off the top of my head that it's really getting ingrained and how I perceive the world and how I, you know act and behave and implement his teaching in my life.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's such a powerful way to put it. It's getting ingrained in how you perceive the world. How do you act? Jesus's teaching is really getting inside of you. It's it's not just this external word on a paper, but it's actually this internal word. Biblical language would be like written on the heart in that way. So let's talk a little bit more about that, because this might be, for most people, the biggest challenge in this process, which is Memorizing. I think it's a hundred and six verses, yeah, something like that. Hundred seven, maybe. Give you took talked a little bit about the how. Tell us the why in your experience? Why is this worth doing?
Speaker 2:I Mean you know selfishly.
Speaker 2:I Wanted our kids to know the beatitudes you know, I think I heard you or Damien, or both of you all talk about the importance of the Sermon. The mountain, like you know, it's kind of like on par with Psalm 23 and, oh, by the way, the Lord's prayers baked right in the middle of it. And and so I was like gosh, I have not taught our kids this, so we had it printed out, put on the wall. So for, like me, like the motivation was like seeing them, like Hudson last week, or come over baseball practice, him saying I asked him say what's your favorite, what's your favorite memory verse or scripture verse, and he's like Matthew 5, 1 through 10, well, and I was like Like I said, dad, those are like sentinel moments, right, like watching a kid walk is like equal to it.
Speaker 2:So I think a lot of the motivation and how it changes you is seeing it in other people. Like I can testify in the change that I have seen in Charlie's life, like it has been almost real time and it's because the word doesn't return void, and so, while he may be frustrated he can't memorize it word for word, it is changing him and so that motivates me. Hearing my kids be able to recite that motivates me. Like does that make sense, like there's something about the communal aspect and community aspect of it that helps it sink in and really is inspiring, you know, encouraging on going.
Speaker 1:Well, and let the listener understand, when Casey says he has it on his wall, he doesn't mean there's a sticky note he has like a door size poster.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's three feet by six feet.
Speaker 3:I don't have enough room, I don't have enough walls.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. This has become a new thing to do, but it's a core in his house now.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean, like I said, Jen is a good sport fall by insanity and like but it's funny like you get up and it's right there on the wall. You can't miss it. It's so good. Right, so anyways we've tried everything that's the punchline to try to memorize it, but then, to Charlie's right, it sinks in.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, james could have-. You can have it not word for word.
Speaker 3:I mean you get that message and you start just really understanding it, just like all the way through.
Speaker 1:Yes, James Clear has the four pieces of a habit, four parts right Q, craving, response, reward. And both of y'all have spoken to the Q of having on your wall you go into your kitchen or whatever and you just see it there. Or having on your phone how many you know? We've got like 300 pickups on our phone every day, apparently, or something like that. So if it's right there, that Q is just in front of you and it kind of habituates you to actually engage with the text in that way. So I'm curious, how would you all put words to? We've already described pretty well the challenge, right? Most people listening to this. If they look at the document, they're gonna know the challenge pretty clearly. Tell us the why, the value add to your life, not just of memorization, although that's a significant part, but the value add to your life of carving out the time, creating the space in your schedule, meeting with these men on Wednesday mornings, probably at a pretty early time because it's before work for all of you Like, why would you do this?
Speaker 3:Well, for me at least, I didn't grow up in the church or anything like that.
Speaker 3:I'd found God later on, and really not until I moved to Orlando. I got involved with these guys and through my work with the Carter family and then meeting KC is when I started to really start going to church and read the Bible and develop my faith. And it was almost just like, hey, these guys, I work with all of them at some point and they're going, I may as well go. And then so it started off as like almost like a just trying to get through here. And then, as every time I went to church or did, once, we started getting into this with the Sermon on the Mount. It was like I was hearing kind of exactly what I needed to hear and for things I was dealing with personally in my own life at the right time. And that was when it started to kind of click that like, hey, this is really impactful and I don't have to go at this alone and I can do it all and really there's finding some meaning and some guidance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so helpful. So even to hear you describe it that way, it's as if you had kind of a seedling form of faith. But this was pouring water in sunlight and soil, and I mean this actually has cultivated and grown your faith in yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:You know, I started like I just kind of said, but it felt like an obligation, like hey, I kind of I should go to this.
Speaker 3:I don't really know if I'd buy it all or If I'm in if I want to. You know, memorize 110 verses of the Bible like I wasn't that into it. But as I've gone into this and with Casey's leadership leading our circle, it's really inspired and made it a whole lot easier and made me want to do it, versus feeling like I had to do it, and each week gets a little bit easier and more like I don't have to do this, I get to do this.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a powerful way to put it and it's something you said a moment ago too. Is you experienced it where these things were becoming applicable to your life, like relevant in your life? There's things you're going through in your life that the Sermon of the Mount was speaking to, and maybe even to zoom out for the listeners. When you think about the topics in the Sermon of the Mount you're talking about, how do you deal with power? Well, how do you deal with anger and lust and integrity and people that make you really angry, like you know, enemies and anxiety.
Speaker 1:Matthew six is so much about anxiety and wealth and money and what role that plays and the inputs you have and being critical in your spirit towards people and like these are every day kind of this. Isn't some abstract archaic you know so heavily minded, know-earthly good. This is like boots on the ground every day warp and wolf of life that Jesus is speaking to in meaningful ways. And when you start to experience that by immersing yourself in the teaching of the Sermon of the Mount, you begin realizing how integral this is to the life of a disciple of Jesus. So how about you, casey? How would you describe the value, add, the why behind committing yourself to this?
Speaker 2:Gosh, I probably answered the question now, having seen a lot of fruit of the last four months, differently than when we decided to do it upfront. Jen said a couple of weeks ago or maybe last week. She said the last two or three months with you and Carter is the best version of you as dad I've seen. Wow. And I think, probably mistakenly, I probably was a good intentions, bad form on a lot of things related to parenting and other areas of life too.
Speaker 2:And I remember I said this to Ted Sin recently, but like he preached the Sermon of the Mount, I said you know, 70% should be the light, 20% disciple, 10% discipline, and we tend to do it all upside down and that certainly was me as a father and still trying to reform from that. But the beatitudes calls you to a very different orientation. It's not farisetical and a set of rules. It's actually calling I guess you could look at it too but it's either calling you to do something deeper or even or said differently at a higher plane. There's no longer about what's right and wrong, it's about what's loving and unloving.
Speaker 2:And I think, for the first time in a long time, like watching the transformation in Charlie and Perry and Conrad in my own life, what I'm realizing is a lot of things I thought were super, super important they're not important at all and things that I had probably not put much importance on are super important, like my kids need to, even when they're failing here. I am so proud of you and like I, and even when we don't get the memorization right, like I've said this to Charlie, like he gets frustrated because the memorization like I'm like Charlie, our heavenly father is so happy, he is so proud, he like he is ecstatic, he's, he is. He's like watching our children here on earth trying and not getting right. All you care is that they're trying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I probably just you know as an achiever, helper, probably had just a lot of things in the wrong order for a long time, and now my goal is like I really have a week just delight, delight, delight, delight. And I feel God's delight, not because I'm getting it right, mm-hmm. I've had a said to Scott this morning like I, for the first time in life, I feel like I'm let off the hook, I don't have to get it right, mm-hmm, and if I'm not getting it right, I don't have to feel like a loser. Yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:I just I get to receive my heavenly father's delight Because I'm following after his son so good, and so I think you know I wouldn't be able to say that four months ago. That's honest. But increasingly, as we go through this, I feel like I'm being set free of a lot of things that were performance oriented before and and really seeing God transform Everybody in our group as a result of just sitting at the feet. You know, it says when he saw the crowds, you up on the mountain side and his disciples came to him.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:We're his disciples too. Yeah. So every time I read the Surma the Mount, I picture in my mind. I'm walking up to Jesus and he's saying it to me. Mm-hmm, and I get to hear directly from him.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, I love that one. One way to summarize the entire Bible is that Jesus came to give us his access to the father, which is such good news. And the sermon of the mouth upon. You know, reflecting on it, memorizing it, I learned one of the primary themes. Maybe top three is the father, which is kind of remarkable.
Speaker 1:You know the, the Beatitudes, that you might be called sons of the of God and that that people might see your good works and give glory to your father who's in heaven. And the father shows up as the one who's merciful to the just and the unjust. He's loving to the good and the evil. In Matthew 6, jesus, you know, challenges us, calls us to pray, because your father knows what you need. Before you ask, you don't have to heap up empty phrases, right? And? And then the whole premise of how do you deal with anxiety. You know you have a confidence that this is my father's world and he cares for the lilies, he cares for the birds and you're of way more value to him than those things. And so if he does that, how much more is he gonna care for you? And then, in Matthew 7, when he gets to you know, if you, then who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children. How much more will your father, who is in heaven, give good things to those who ask him? He's just, he's constantly appealing to this reality that you have God as your father now, and that is the most, maybe the most significant, life-changing, crucial fact in your existence at this point, because you're a disciple of Jesus and so you, responding to the father's love and affection and delight in you in that way Might have been one of Jesus's purpose statements, his learning objectives, for no question, no question, so let's get into specificity here.
Speaker 1:Be attitudes, I Think the beatitudes. At the table of contents for the whole sermon, jesus basically says hey, here's the eight things that matter most in the kingdom of the heavens, and then he just unpacks and applies them to real-life situations for the rest of the sermon. And so, as you spent time in the beatitudes, which ones resonated with you, which ones challenged you, which One? If you had to choose one that maybe has had the most impact on you, which one would that be?
Speaker 3:They're all very impactful. I mean, you know, in week two we talk about blessed are the poor in spirit, for there's the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they should be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth, and Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. You know, week two, I felt was was pretty impactful for me. And then and then one other one I'll talk about was blessed for the merciful, for those show mercy, you like that one.
Speaker 2:I do like that. I can be naturally good at mercy part. I can be a bit harsh.
Speaker 3:You're going too far and and really kind of You've seen that movie crotty kid, like where the sensei sweep the leg Johnny.
Speaker 2:No mercy, no, that's that's.
Speaker 1:that's Charlie on the outside line when they're beating up on the poor other team.
Speaker 3:I was like hey, we, we subbed, we subbed pretty early against against your son the other night.
Speaker 1:It was a multitude versus none.
Speaker 3:It's amazing we were. We were running the young kids pretty quickly.
Speaker 2:We weren't trying to embarrass anybody.
Speaker 3:but uh, yeah, now the um, you know, week two and the beatitudes, and in a couple other verses, they're all They've had a massive impact on me life, just in the way of uh, just just changing my outlook on things, um being less judgmental, being less, you know, I I have my own faults, to say the least and um, kind of looking at things through a different lens and just kind of taking a step back and quitting in.
Speaker 3:You know, not trying to get a little bit of a better picture. You know, not trying to do it all myself.
Speaker 1:So good. You know, I what particularly that beatitude. I've experienced it as I'll be in a situation. I'm like what's right here? Should I try to get what's my do? Should I get justice? That's a much better way to put it. Well, but because that's there right, you're like I could get my do here, I could get what's right, I could get justice here. But then you hear Jesus saying, hey, if, like, flourishing looks like being merciful, and then I, and then it's this invitation to to my own flourishing and the flourishing of other people, yeah, and that's helpful to me because it makes it pretty clear what, what is the, the path to walk in in that moment. How is that how you'd experience that particular beatitude?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean just really thinking about what I'm saying, like, why? Why am I saying this? Am I saying this just to correct someone? Am I saying this to be right? Am I you know what? What is, what good comes out of me saying this? And is there anything Just being more thoughtful in my, in my speech and in my actions as well? You know, what it?
Speaker 3:what is the purpose of this and is it beneficial? Is there any reason to do it? You know Is. Is it the Christian thing to do to just turn, you know, turn the other cheek, and Uh, and keep going like that. So you know, that's I used to be very. I still have a tendency, but you know I was always out to you know, be spiteful and um, I still like to argue, but I'm working on that and uh, sometimes it's better to just let it go and yeah, so helpful.
Speaker 1:How about you, casey beatitude?
Speaker 2:I think the bookends. For me, poverty and persecution are not typically top of mind of what am I going after and, um matter of fact, probably my entire life orientation has been the opposite. You know how can you know, pursue prosperity and and uh, protection, mm-hmm Um that's a good inverse, yeah, and it's like the entire beatitudes are a call in the opposite direction Of the world. The world say get rich Right so you never have to be sad, You're not going to mourn. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Uh, you certainly don't have to be meek. You can be puffed up, show everybody, put your instagram account Like, get all the followers you can and post everything that you can think of, and you don't hunger and thirst because you're already well fed and and after that you don't need to be merciful. Everybody else is a screw up. Look at you You're, you've got it and the pure in heart.
Speaker 2:nobody can see your heart, so you can keep whatever nastiness you want there nobody's gonna get at that and, and you know for sure, you don't be a peacemaker because you're gonna end up on top so nobody can persecute you. And so it's this like the beatitudes calls us down, the follow. Christ is the one who was. I am gentle and lowly, and it's just a call to lower and lower where the world calls. And so that's why, like, there is such this big gap between the wealthy of this world, or the, the aesthetically powerful, using tim keller language, and where christ was, and it's so hard to cross that chasm as a rich person yeah, because it's the opposite of what we're called to. And the beatitudes, and so the first and last one for me been probably the most impactful, because it just feels so contrary. And yet, bless the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, and bless her. Those are persky for my, for my namesake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Speaker 2:So we want the kingdom of heaven, we have to expect to be to acknowledge our bankruptcy. Like we cannot pay this debt. Yeah and we welcome suffering for the name of christ, and it's like like, did you just like?
Speaker 1:so counterintuitive am.
Speaker 2:I gonna do with that like that's so opposite it, it wrecks the way I've lived so much of my life. Not just it, not just at work or In social settings, but even with, like jen and the kids. Like no, I'm called to be the most bankrupt one in the house. Right, like that's not how we imagine a great father. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, our heavenly father. He looks. This is like hey guys, just stop trying. I got this.
Speaker 1:You know, you said it a moment ago which is this these beatitudes are the opposite of everything the world would say, and dallas willard coined the term of. The kingdom of the heavens is really the upside down kingdom, because it's this inversion.
Speaker 1:Yeah and one of the things as I was Memorizing the Sermon of the Mount, I paid attention to when jesus said things like truly, truly, I say to you, yeah, because that seems like a double, like an underline, you know if you get under really paid to yeah, like really yeah, this is the important part.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we were there for yeah. Any of the there for yeah?
Speaker 1:And and I found that he put them in places. I wouldn't have put them. Like, truly, I say to you and and you will never get out until you've paid the last penny, that's right. I just thought, why are you gonna like emphasize that? And or, you know, when he says you know, judge, not that you be not judged, for with the judgment you use you will be judging with the measure. With the measure you use, it will be measured to you. And I stopped. What's the significance here? And I donned on me? Or the last example I'll give is the Lord's Prayer. You know we get the Lord's Prayer, we all know that. And then he double clicks on one phrase in the Lord's Prayer afterwards, which is as we have forgiven our debtors.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't double click on that, that would be close to the bottom. I double click on kingdom on earth as in heaven, you know daily bread, getting my debts forgiven. And it dawned on me, I think, what was happening there is. Jesus is saying there's two worlds and you choose which one you live in. There's the kingdom of abundance and mercy and then there's the empire of scarcity and merit. And the reason why the values of the kingdom of abundance and mercy are so inverted to the empire of scarcity and merit is because they are two different kingdoms, two different rules, two different regimes, and one has a father in heaven who provides abundantly and the other one's an orphan kingdom. And most of the world and we're born into this and we're kind of cataclyzed and formed into this is living in a world of scarcity and merit. You better get yours, because if you don't get yours, who's gonna get it for you? You better hoard it.
Speaker 2:And you better hoard it Because you don't know when the old phrase, the rainy day comes.
Speaker 1:That's right, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2:Or you need a bug out bag Right like.
Speaker 1:And he's saying that you cannot sort of gotten money, and so I was so helped by that. These are two different kingdoms, two different worlds you can live in, and he's inviting you into a world where you actually would get hit on the other cheek rather than retaliate, or when you would actually bless those who curse you, you'd pray for those who persecute you, because there's an abundance and there's mercy in this kingdom, and that just, I mean it opens up the Sermon of the Mountain a new way, because it's not idealistic, it's actually profoundly realistic if that's the world you live in and there's where their faith comes in Consumers that this is actually the world that lives and you see these contrasts.
Speaker 2:he teaches them and then the rest of the ministry of Christ with the disciples. You see these contrasts playing out when he is constantly making the alternative choice to what everybody else is.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, even like, right up to the end, he's not defending himself, mm-hmm. We've gotten to more than a handful of debates about right to bear arms and what if the ATF comes to your door, like some things may be a little bit of a fringy, but anyways, like we say, well, what would you do? And when they came to get Christ, we saw what he did Peter pulls out the sword maybe their modern AR-15, and takes somebody's ear off.
Speaker 1:Nine millimeter baby Exactly.
Speaker 2:Jesus like, put that ear back on, put that sword down. Like we see that he doesn't resist. Like we see it in Matthew five do not resist in the evil verse of you, so you'll be called a child of God. He doesn't. Jesus is evil and he doesn't resist him. The Sanhedrin's evil, he doesn't resist them. Pontius, the evil doesn't resist them. The crowd doesn't resist them. He gives them everything and in that we get the cross, the tomb and then the empty tomb. So loud.
Speaker 2:It's like you're like oh wow, he didn't just say it, he did it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, he embodied it all.
Speaker 2:Right, like you realize, the rest of the New Testament is just an exposition on the Sermon of the Mount. There's really no new content. It's just other ways of saying and showing you and modeling out what is in those three chapters. If bonkers, it's finally like clicks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you want to prove that, go read the book of James and read the Sermon of the Mount side by side and you'll realize James is Jesus' little brother, just riffing on his big brother's greatest sermon and applying it to the church in Jerusalem and teaching them how to live according to it, with some case studies that they're wrestling with, and you're like, oh, that's what every pastor's done for the last 2000 years, correct, and that's the call. So the Sermon of the Mount has this centrality to it in the Christian faith.
Speaker 2:The whole thing folds in on it.
Speaker 1:So to transition from the Sermon of the Mount to the space of a circle, the environment itself. This isn't a Bible study. We've talked a lot about the Bible, we've talked a lot about Matthew 5 through 7, but this is not a Bible study. It's something more than that, something significantly more than that, because the actual space of it's just the four of you. Every week, nobody comes in, nobody goes out. It's like Hotel California in that way. Like you're doing this together. There was a commitment on the front end to each other. So tell me a little bit about how. Have you experienced, maybe even specific situations where you received encouragement or challenge from one another in that circle space, in that relational environment?
Speaker 3:Well, as far as encouragement goes, it's a lot easier for me to go to the circle and do this every week consistently, more so than probably going to church on Sunday. And I feel like I get more out of this circle group than I do from anything else I do. And it's easy to have that commitment and accountability when we're all very close friends and we talk to each other and have group texts and all that and you know everyone else is gonna go. Mm-hmm Casey's a fantastic leader for our group and without him it would probably wouldn't function at all.
Speaker 1:What would you speak to that leadership aspect, like what?
Speaker 3:role does Casey play to lead this? Yeah, so I mean Casey's at a much different point in life than I am. I'm 25, I'm a young guy.
Speaker 2:And he's an old man. I'm old enough to do his dad 47,. So yes, literally.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so having that mentor relationship where he's also extremely well versed in all of this, as opposed to me who is relatively new to the church and whatnot, it helps having someone like him or a mentor figure that can take charge and lead the group and kind of lead the discussion questions and then as far as like the actual discussions themselves and say Casey or Perry, who's mid-30s, he's gonna be mad. I said that Called himself early 30s. But seeing those guys be able to open up and talk about experiences in their lives makes it a whole lot easier for Conrad and I, the younger two, to be able to be willing and able to speak on our own things going on and open up about that.
Speaker 1:So helpful. So even the makeup of your circle has different age, stage, demographics, married, unmarried kids, no kids, and there's that. That diversity is actually kind of helpful Okay.
Speaker 2:I actually think it's. We're all drawn to same age, same stage and I actually think I've been helped more by not being the case. They always say stuff like with Charles, oh, casey's a great leader. And what's crazy is like I tell them all the time like you're 40, I'm 47, y'all are 25, like you guys 26,. You guys are learning stuff 20 years earlier than it sunk in for me, like I wish somebody like rattled my cage when I was in my mid-20s, like just memorize the sermon of the mouth, just study that for six months, give your like, let yourself off the hook and so to see the change in their lives in such a short period of time, just sitting at the feet of Jesus and letting him teach spineers, and I think that the transparency and the circle works really well, almost like Jump notification, cause we were meeting for almost over a year enhancers and inconsistencies.
Speaker 2:We didn't have this framework. We did like book study, but this things starts with tell your story, and I can't over-emphasize not possible overemphasize how important that first exercise was, because it allowed us all to take our masks off wherever we are. My mask at age 47, Paris at age 33, there's age 25, 26,. Now they're both at a birthday. It's just like it changes you to know the authentic version of each other.
Speaker 1:Yes, good.
Speaker 2:And then you're like you know Charlie can be like are you being too hard on Carter there? Or like I can say, hey, you know, can you guys spend time with them and talk to them about this, cause he's not going to hear it from me? Or like, hey guys, this is something I had a disagreement with Jen like I need prayer and it's like it just allows you then to all have a like level playing field, almost to engage one another. That that story part, like, cannot be skipped.
Speaker 1:So good. It lays a foundation for what we call transparent trust. You said taking your mask off. Yeah, and that might be another characteristic of leadership is leaders go first in that, right, and you kind of set the tone for the rest of the people, right? So if you tell that story at, you know, 10,000 feet, that's how everybody else will do it. If you tell it like boots in the ground, lived realities, that's how everybody else will tell it. So helpful, all right, rapid fire to kind of close us out here. If you were to say how you've experienced more of Jesus as a result of your circle, what would you say?
Speaker 2:There have been moments in my life that I felt you know the verse, this is my son period and him I'm well pleased, but it's usually pretty rare. Being honest, like I don't feel that very often and Like listening to Christ teaching every week and then asking the Holy Spirit to change me in accordance to his teaching every week. Hmm. I can honestly say like I really I Think my heavenly father's pleased, not because of anything I'm doing, but because of what I'm letting him do.
Speaker 1:So good. How about you, charlie?
Speaker 3:Yes, I mean more recently. You know our week 15 we started. It's a fast for from Sun up, sun down, and that is difficult for me. I like to eat food.
Speaker 3:That's an understatement and Not to make light of it, but you know it does have a profound impact. When you know I'm sitting in the office, I'm so hungry I'm in a routine of eating lunch at a certain time every day. I don't eat breakfast anyway. So you know, noon comes around, I'm ready to go and you know, really stopping and thinking about it. You know why we're doing this, what, what the purpose is behind it and and that's one of the latest things where it's like Jesus's teachings are coming into my life every day I'm consciously thinking about it and in applying it.
Speaker 1:So helpful, and I love that, that even in the embodied act of fasting, right it it, we call it hungering for God with others, and that that gives you this acute reminder of your dependency on Jesus. And in those moments, yeah. So last question If you were to give encouragement, challenge Vision for somebody who's on the fence of jumping into a circle, a sermon of the mount circle in particular, what's maybe a sentence or two, what would you say to encourage them?
Speaker 2:well, I said to a close friend of ours this morning like this I really believe if you'll, if you'll just allow yourself To commit to this three or three and a half hours a week for 28 weeks, even if it takes you 35, you get them done. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:The centrality of the gospel will will change you and everybody else is doing it with you. Hmm, so it's just really hard so it's hard to go ahead and take the plunge, but it it. It was important enough For Christ to make the center of all that he came to share. It's worth six months of our devotion.
Speaker 1:Man. Good words to close on. Well said, charlie Casey, it's been a gift even for me to sit here and hear you all articulate.
Speaker 2:Well, I want to say thank you before we close out, like we're do. We did this because you. You said, hey, would you try this? We didn't know. Your guinea pigs in a hamster.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally love like oh, yeah, I had no idea.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, Thank you yeah it's been transformational. Yeah for for us and for the people that we live with, yeah, and the people that we work with it just it's really been life-changing, so thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as you said earlier, as if at the time the, the word, doesn't return, boy, and that's what you've experienced it. Actually there's a lot of fruit.
